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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
Well done Brian, fitted and working eh!
Right We seem to be about to have a meet up, down your end, so if we can finalise something
I should be able to pick it up from you.
Right We seem to be about to have a meet up, down your end, so if we can finalise something
I should be able to pick it up from you.
72... AND STILL ROCKIN..........around the world...... NOT in a chair yet
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
Hey Phil, I see that Brian is offering a £150 (approx) solution to the stripped spline problem on 4x4 driveshafts on t'other side. Has this materialised out of your research/engineering of the problem?
1991 BX19GTi Auto
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
Took all the stuff down to Rakeway specialist motorsport machine shop, in Cheadle (staffs) 2 weeks back.
Threy are going to work out 2 prices for Brian. One as per my drawing and a second for an alternative they came up with.
Difference bein my version will be quite cheap. They suggested re manufacturing the splines, which will work OK but as a rough estimate I reckon it will cost 5 times more.
Watch this space
Threy are going to work out 2 prices for Brian. One as per my drawing and a second for an alternative they came up with.
Difference bein my version will be quite cheap. They suggested re manufacturing the splines, which will work OK but as a rough estimate I reckon it will cost 5 times more.
Watch this space
72... AND STILL ROCKIN..........around the world...... NOT in a chair yet
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
It seems there may be an implication on rising cost............
and then:Brian King wrote:What I posted was as a result of a telephone conversation with an engineer in Cheshire who has experience of preparing Citroen 2CV 4WD competition cars. You have made me doubt what I wrote about cost. I have today sent a message to the engineers to give me an estimate of what the cost would be for the job for one car ie with one male and one female spline.
Kaapelimies wrote:The job is quite complicated because you have to fill the old splines with medal (welding or some other mean), then machine the threads, and then give an appropriate heat-threathing to maintain the stregth and sturdiness required for the power and torsion available from the angine, as 100% of the power goes through the splines.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
that's if you rework the splines, but as Phil has hinted at, there is more than one way to fry a herring.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
It'll be interesting to see which way they choose to move forward.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
Don't know what's going on here. Maybe even a different supplier.
The discussion I had with the guy at Rakeway said nothing about welding up the splines, which is a non starter anyway, from an engineering point of view, but actually re manufacturing the splined ends of the 2 items and then bead welding them back to their respective ends. IE crownwheel hub and transfer box main drive sprocket which are bead welded on now.
This method would definitely cure the problem but be quite expensive as a one off, as requires some accurate machining and a beadwelding machine but could become cheaper if we could get at least a dozen or so to do.
I don't know what the prices are that he has sent Brian as he hasn't told me. The method below I estimate at about £150. Their suggestion I reckon between 5 and £700.
However my suggestion was to use the existing splines, but with the 2 parts set into a purpose made machining jig and cut in 3 keyways. Make 3 keys to fit from moly van, weld them in with TIG. This would anneal the hard mat'l and not need re heat treating and then clean back the surface to original dia as there is a brg in the transfer box goes right over that spot.
I already made the jig and set the parts in their respective positions. The machining need not be perfect on 120 degrees (as it will always fit in one position.) I supplied the mat'l for the keys and to make 3 would only take about 1/2 an hour as they need to be a transition fit in their keyways.
Those were the options as I arranged with Rakeway, I am not aware of anything other than that.
The discussion I had with the guy at Rakeway said nothing about welding up the splines, which is a non starter anyway, from an engineering point of view, but actually re manufacturing the splined ends of the 2 items and then bead welding them back to their respective ends. IE crownwheel hub and transfer box main drive sprocket which are bead welded on now.
This method would definitely cure the problem but be quite expensive as a one off, as requires some accurate machining and a beadwelding machine but could become cheaper if we could get at least a dozen or so to do.
I don't know what the prices are that he has sent Brian as he hasn't told me. The method below I estimate at about £150. Their suggestion I reckon between 5 and £700.
However my suggestion was to use the existing splines, but with the 2 parts set into a purpose made machining jig and cut in 3 keyways. Make 3 keys to fit from moly van, weld them in with TIG. This would anneal the hard mat'l and not need re heat treating and then clean back the surface to original dia as there is a brg in the transfer box goes right over that spot.
I already made the jig and set the parts in their respective positions. The machining need not be perfect on 120 degrees (as it will always fit in one position.) I supplied the mat'l for the keys and to make 3 would only take about 1/2 an hour as they need to be a transition fit in their keyways.
Those were the options as I arranged with Rakeway, I am not aware of anything other than that.
72... AND STILL ROCKIN..........around the world...... NOT in a chair yet
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
by bead welding do you mean like a submerged arc to build up the surface while rotating? If so i know a place, and a man! JSM engineering in Saltney.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
Yeah that's it Vanny. The thing looks vaguely like a lathe with a chuck and a small welding head instead of a tool post. I believe they have CNC types now that you programme to do all kinds of wonderful things.. Not submerged arc though, more a cross between MIG and TIG, using some weird argon mixes. believe it or not some have 2% dreaded Oxygen.
Brian rang me this afternoon, apparently his comments have been misquoted by a number of others. A bit like Chinese whispers.
He has not received any price quotes from Rakeway yet but I maintain my version is cheap enough to try first and if it fails (technically there is no reason why it should) move to the more radical alternative. Brian is now on a quest to find others who want to try this route. I think he will need at least 12 to bring the cost down. The problem will be finding financially stable takers.
The main problem with re manufacturing with say 3 or 4 mm splines is that it requires absolute accuracy as both parts go in different boxes and are held inside the transfer box by a brg round the outside of the female end. the slightest error and they will not slide together let alone drive.
Brian rang me this afternoon, apparently his comments have been misquoted by a number of others. A bit like Chinese whispers.
He has not received any price quotes from Rakeway yet but I maintain my version is cheap enough to try first and if it fails (technically there is no reason why it should) move to the more radical alternative. Brian is now on a quest to find others who want to try this route. I think he will need at least 12 to bring the cost down. The problem will be finding financially stable takers.
The main problem with re manufacturing with say 3 or 4 mm splines is that it requires absolute accuracy as both parts go in different boxes and are held inside the transfer box by a brg round the outside of the female end. the slightest error and they will not slide together let alone drive.
72... AND STILL ROCKIN..........around the world...... NOT in a chair yet
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
Someone else remembered you were working on this, Phil:Philhod wrote: my suggestion was to use the existing splines, but with the 2 parts set into a purpose made machining jig and cut in 3 keyways. Make 3 keys to fit from moly van, weld them in with TIG. This would anneal the hard mat'l and not need re heat treating and then clean back the surface to original dia as there is a brg in the transfer box goes right over that spot.
I already made the jig and set the parts in their respective positions. The machining need not be perfect on 120 degrees (as it will always fit in one position.) I supplied the mat'l for the keys and to make 3 would only take about 1/2 an hour as they need to be a transition fit in their keyways.
Those were the options as I arranged with Rakeway, I am not aware of anything other than that.
As a result Brian has acknowledged your input and posted your solution plus an alternative (but no confirmed costs yet) :Jaba wrote:Someone posted here a few years back that a simple (relatively ) solution was available by simply machining slots to allow the insertion of dogs or keys leaving the unmachined splines remaining for location and some extra grip.
Brian King wrote:This is the solution recommended by Philhod who has gone so far as to make a working jig with the offending shafts in it. We are waiting for a quote for the cutting and welding, as well as one for the alternative solution, which is to make brand new splined ends. Basically we need quotes for each solution, but they're slow coming. We will post them as soon as they are received.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
As far as I know there is one guy in Poland waiting to hear something and another in the Czech Republic.
Well yeah, although a lot of the intervening time was wasted by me trying to call in favours and get the machining done for nothing. This was mainly down to my finding a suitable working solution from an engineering point of view, but aware that it was by no means sure to work.
At least at that point. The discussions I have had with a few engineers since and the shop I took it to a few weeks back, has convinced me it will work.
The worry I had originally has been mentioned by others, ie, that the dog keys may shear on impact. This I now don't think will happen. Different owners have described what happens and they more or less lose drive after extra load is added. This was borne out when I originally inspected the splines and took some accurate measurements. The splines are slightly longer than they need to be to allow for endfloat, so 2 bits are not worn. They measured a dead 2 mill and the worn bits 1.927 nominally (there was slight variation). Not much I know but if they had been just 1 mill bigger originally this would have made no difference but at only 2 mill it was inevitable that slip would occur eventually.
Anyway, using annealed chrome moly for the keys makes it less hard for mc/ing but tough and much less prone to shear than in the hardened state.
I've been on the phone to Brian to push these guys into pricing it up, as they were recommended by someone at Cit Car Club. The sooner he can get it done, the sooner I can get the boxes rebuilt and from cluttering my workshop up
Well yeah, although a lot of the intervening time was wasted by me trying to call in favours and get the machining done for nothing. This was mainly down to my finding a suitable working solution from an engineering point of view, but aware that it was by no means sure to work.
At least at that point. The discussions I have had with a few engineers since and the shop I took it to a few weeks back, has convinced me it will work.
The worry I had originally has been mentioned by others, ie, that the dog keys may shear on impact. This I now don't think will happen. Different owners have described what happens and they more or less lose drive after extra load is added. This was borne out when I originally inspected the splines and took some accurate measurements. The splines are slightly longer than they need to be to allow for endfloat, so 2 bits are not worn. They measured a dead 2 mill and the worn bits 1.927 nominally (there was slight variation). Not much I know but if they had been just 1 mill bigger originally this would have made no difference but at only 2 mill it was inevitable that slip would occur eventually.
Anyway, using annealed chrome moly for the keys makes it less hard for mc/ing but tough and much less prone to shear than in the hardened state.
I've been on the phone to Brian to push these guys into pricing it up, as they were recommended by someone at Cit Car Club. The sooner he can get it done, the sooner I can get the boxes rebuilt and from cluttering my workshop up
72... AND STILL ROCKIN..........around the world...... NOT in a chair yet
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
And another one in LithuaniaPhilhod wrote:As far as I know there is one guy in Poland waiting to hear something and another in the Czech Republic. [..]
1989 GTi 4x4 berline
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Re: Stationary BX 4x4
I was just accross the water from you, in Sweden, when you posted this latest post.
I confess I have been ultra busy keeping the business afloat since June. However I will re contact Brian to find out where we are up to with this.
Now we have relocated to Manchester I am only doing 3 days so will have more time.
I also recently made contact with an ex colleague who is now in charge of the engineering faculty at UCLAN, who I may be able to persuade to view the job as a research project, if the commercial guys are not interested.
I confess I have been ultra busy keeping the business afloat since June. However I will re contact Brian to find out where we are up to with this.
Now we have relocated to Manchester I am only doing 3 days so will have more time.
I also recently made contact with an ex colleague who is now in charge of the engineering faculty at UCLAN, who I may be able to persuade to view the job as a research project, if the commercial guys are not interested.
72... AND STILL ROCKIN..........around the world...... NOT in a chair yet
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.
Now XBX And into HDI.....as well as other ...err.... things.