BXProject

[jonathan_dyane]

I think I have already moaned about the POS Skoda that belongs to a friends neighbour, and which I have (foolishly) become involved with the repair of, well the saga continues...

She managed to break it when the return spring on the ignition switch failed and she managed to drive it to work with the starter engaged. She had someone fit a new starter, however this did not mesh terribly well with the seemingly ravaged ring gear, making starting difficult.

Last month I dropped out the gearbox (which was a right pain in the arse due to the unholy union of VW diesel engine and Skoda gearbox) and removed the flywheel, leaving it with her to have the ring gear replaced. I did observe that the ring gear didn't look as chewed as it sounded it would, and was surprised that it seemed to be causing the bother, but I was in by then, it was a bit burred, and the starter was new and seemed fine.

She gives me a shout at the weekend (after a month of it sitting on my ramps with the engine balanced on my hydraulic jack which is supposed to live in my boot...) to say she'd finally got her arse into gear and collected the flywheel. I spend this afternoon throwing it back together, and guess what, it's just the fucking same. Ridiculously, the starter seems fine though, bearing feels ok, teeth look nice and it works lovely off the car. The way in which it fits into the gearbox makes misalignment impossible, and it is definitely the right starter. What the hell?

Suggestions appreciated, although it *has* to be the starter. Surely

[Vanny]

does the starter run through a relay? Failing that are you getting a full 12v at the starter. What sort of starter is it? Permanantly engaged i suspect not, but how does it actually engage?

[David]

it *has* to be the starter. Surely

Correct.

I've heard issues with VW engines with seemingly identical starter motors having slightly different "mod" teeth (and hence a different number of teeth) Have you still got access to the old starter? If so, count the number of teeth on the pinion and the number on the new one.

Betcha they're 1 different.

Also, has the ring-gear been fitted the correct way around?

[Philhod]

Now this is strange! I had a similar problem with a Polo several years ago, never counted the pinion teeth TBH but I solved it by fitting some shim steel washers on re engine side bolt.

This made the motor tilt in towards the flywheel very slightly and it worked fine?????????

[jonathan_dyane]

Much appreciated guys, feel less like I'm going mad now...

Electrically it is spot on, mechanically it is the pre-engaged type. The new ring gear had the same number of teeth as the old, and hopefully is on the correct way

It has to be a matter of teeth. If only the old one wasn't long gone. Better hit the parts books...

Cheers,

[jonathan_dyane]

Now this is strange! I had a similar problem with a Polo several years ago, never counted the pinion teeth TBH but I solved it by fitting some shim steel washers on re engine side bolt.

This made the motor tilt in towards the flywheel very slightly and it worked fine?????????

That can't have been great for the bearings

If all else tfails I'll give it a go

[David]

Ohh... yes. Forgot about that.. there is of course the issue of throw-out distance too. If the pinion is being thrown out too far, the base of the pinion will hit the teeth of the ring gear and make a right-old-racket.

There is an adjustment on many starter motors to set the throw out, it's an eccentric pivot pin on the throw-out arm, the nut and screw for which are on the base of the solenoid, just where it's mounted onto the motor.

Worth checking and setting.

[jonathan_dyane]

Ohh... yes. Forgot about that.. there is of course the issue of throw-out distance too.

Mmm, that's a damn good point; I hadn't thought of that. It isn't being thrown out too far (the problem is lack of engagement as well as noise) but not far enough would do it...

Cheers!

[jayw]

If it helps, i had this caused by a lack of power from the battery, off the car it seemed fine and the battery was testing fine in the normal domestic ways, however, it took a new battery to solve the problem as the olld battery lacked the amps to throw the starter pinion out hard enough causing a lack of engagement.

[Vanny]

fuck me he's alive!

[David]

Sorry, that makes no sense at all. A pre-engaged starter motor cannot spin the pinion up with any sort of power behind it until the pinion is fully engaged in the ring gear, that's the whole point of a pre-engaged starter with the solenoid having the dual action of first moving the pinion out, and only then engaging full power to the starter motor.

If the battery is a bit shit, either the pinion will engage and then the motor will barely turn the engine, or if it's very shit, the pinion will fail to engage. If it's that dead, then there's no way it will do anything.

Your description does make sense for a bendix-type starter motor though (IE a non-pre-engaged one)

[Philhod]

Apart from retro stuff from the 60's. I don't think anything still uses those David.

If there is a lack of power to a pre engaged unit and the battery checks out ok, it's nearly always the connection from the solenoid to the starter motor that's become loose.
If it's on the outside you can check it without taking the motor off.
But make sure the battery + is disconnected

[docchevron132]

My bus has pre-engaged. Tis fucking huge too!

[David]

Apart from retro stuff from the 60's. I don't think anything still uses those David.

Indeed, hence my marginal concern about the information given...

[David]

Also, while I remember: The other thing worth checking on this arrangement is the tooth mesh. Are the starter teeth simply skipping over the ring-gear teeth? Shouldn't be possible I know, but I've seen it before.

[Philhod]

Ha Ha Ha. That used to be a Fraud specialty in the 60's They put a recess in the motor carrier to take 2 diameters of motor but the flanges had the same PCD (and only 2 holes)
This worked ok till they ran out of motors and fitted another with modified flange holes which moved the ctr over about 1/4". It was contacting with about well less than 1/8", but started the car, for about a month...........................................

[jayw]

fuck me he's alive!

Yeah i'm alive! Got a 1-time-only weekend off!!!

[Philhod]

I get all week off ...to play

[jonathan_dyane]

Comedy of errors continues, after I could find no issue with it I took the starter back to the gentleman who reconditioned it, who was quite happy to investigate, but wanted to see it on the car. As the car was not in a location conducive to bump starting, I decided to tow the Skoda there, with the car's owner volunteering her brother to do the steering bit. Problems hit early, with (ridiculously) the Skoda having no towing eye (possibly already torn off) to attach my tow pole and I was reluctant to tow with a rope as I felt the odds of him running into the back of me were high, (I had a strong suspicion he was not the best man for the job) and I have no tow bar currently to act as a stopping device.

In the end I improvised, managing to atach a shackle to part of the front crossmemember. To begin with, things went well, however trouble struck as we passed a bus which then began to pull out, and I responded by accelerating so as to get out the way. Skoda steerer shits himself and hits brakes, and shackle then rips chunk out of crossmember and we become detached, and have a moment that would have done comic cuts proud, with him having to cut up the said bus whilst rapidly deaccelarating and drive over some pavement in order to get off the road. I found the incident extremely humorous, however the steerer was rather freaked out and wished to abort mission, which I felt was somewhat cowardly of him.

I had to abandon things on Friday, heading North to engage with my current task of splicing three dead Land Rover 2.25 diesel engines into one good one (I use the term loosely, anyone familiar with these particular engines will know that good is a little too much to hope for...) and apparently Lisa is going to try and con the AA into towing the Skoda to the garage tomorrow. I very much doubt they will go for her ruse, and even if they do feel the odds of the bloke fixing it are low, so feel I shall be picking up the pieces on Tuesday. Or hiding; I haven't decided which yet...

[Father Ted]

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