BXProject

[Bx Bandit]

The Xantia has to go! So, I need to push the 16v into service (what a shame!) but there are a couple of issues I want to solve before the Xantia is gone and the 16v is in daily use.

1) Elevated idle revs. I know you're going to say IACV but it has been replaced (2nd hand unit), doesn't stick, freely rotates etc. Only happens once warmed up.
2) Occaisional stalling when cold - absolute beeyatch to re-start (lots of cranking required to start)
3) Prolonged cranking to start when hot. blipping throttle can help but doesn't always.(cold start always on the button)

Plugs are correct 3 electrode NKG.
Leads are good.
Possibly dizzy cap & rotor arm need replacing but they aren't too buggered (possibly rule out?)
All intake and breather pipes secured. No air leaks found
Air filter newish
AFM is good.
AFAIK temp sensors ok but warrants confirmation

Onto the knock sensor! This detects pinking right? And so adjusts timing to eliminate pinking? The error code reported wasn't knock sensor but knock sensor adjustment (or similar - I need to check).
Assuming the actual sensor is ok, what else is involved in this control loop? Surely the ECU will alter timing to eliminate knock? Or, could it be possible that the distributor timing is out thus causing any knock compensation to be out of the 'compensation zone'

On the RON front, I know it ain't supposed to 95, but is 97 ok or should it be 99? Tis a 3 row ecu not cat (think it's the 1.3 inj system)

[docchevron132]

Er, right...

If the ICV is known to be good, next thing to check is the second throttle butterfly. Does it close properly?
It's quite common for the return spring to go weak and not pull the butterfly back properly.
Next would be the ECU temp sensor (in the side of the stat housing), which could also explain the starting issues.

these things eat dizzy caps and rotors, so if they look less than perfect, bin them. These things need good strong fuck off fat spark to fire properly.

Also, worth checking the connectors on the injection relay, even the slightest bit of shit on the contacts will cause havoc.

The knock sensor error is an odd one, and unless the ECU itself is wank I dont really know..

I do have a spare 3 row ECU if you want to try it? Known to be good.

As far as fuel goes, since you have the knock sensor it'll run on any petrol, all the knock sensor does is detect pinking and retard the ignition accordingly until it stops pinking..

Personally I wouldn't use 95RON, and I always use 99RON in mine, but mine has the (superior) 2 row ecu without the knock sensor..
97 should be fine.

Actually all this ECU talk reminds me that the thieving cunt that nicked OHO has a fairly useless engine since the ECU is in my cupboard at home!

[Vanny]

hmmm, i have a spare (BRAND NEW) three row you can borrow.
Always run mine on Optimax or what ever the fuck they call it these days, with good reason (though i know what Bilster will say).
I also have a temp sensor and a new ICV you could borrow. What are you thinking is 'high' revs? Id buy ito a lack of spark for the cold start issues

[Bx Bandit]

no cold start issues Vanny, but hot baby hot issues! High revs? 1500 rpm max. A quick blip can bring it down, but it'll climb it's way back up again.

Pretty sure the 2nd butterfly opens Doc but worth a check. When the TGD is gone I'll do some checks and maybe take up your offers of a lend of spare stuff to help diagnose.

BTW, 2 row...superior.....blaa blaa blaa

[docchevron132]

I've no doubt the 2nd butterfly opens yer tit! But does it close properly?
Mine was doing exactley that.
The only way you could et the frickingthing to idle was to wham ones foot on the nuke pedal and lift off really sharpish like. Then it would stall.
Restart and it was fine for a while, like, until I opened the 2nd butterfly again and the whole process was repeated.

I fucking changed everyfuckingthing, and then by chance just noticed the cam wasn't all the way home.

Lubed shit out of the spindle and cam, hey presto, no more idle issues.
The reason it stalled of course was that the ICV was closing right off to try and bring the revs down, which it couldn't since the 2nd butterfly was passing air.
Once the butterfly snapped shut it had naff all air getting in!

V-Power isn't ideal, but neither is Tesco's 99, so it's all a compromise. I always use Shell if I can, and Tesco's if it's that or run out of fuel.

You are of course most welcome to borrow any bits for diagnostic purposes, although you can have the ECU if you want, I have fuck all use for it, as the 2 row is infact a better ECU and gives more power than the 3 row! So there!!!

[Vanny]

2) Occaisional stalling when cold - absolute beeyatch to re-start (lots of cranking required to start)

you really are a fucking cretin at times

[Vanny]

the 2 row is infact a better ECU and gives more power than the 3 row! So there!!!

nargh, the STOCK map in the 2 row provides a touch more power (like less than 2% over 3row), BUT the 3row is a faster more feature filled ECU that has most of its many functions turned off, thats how good it is! Also, i'm not sure you can have a 2 row with aircon, it hasn't got the AC control inputs.

[docchevron132]

Dont piss on my bonfire young man, 3 rows good, 2 rows better!
I've seen two row cars with A/C so not sure how that happened?
PP's car has A/C and a 2 row...

[Vanny]

So perhaps you cam. I've never seen much evidence of a 2 row AC ECU for the 16v, on the three row there is extra wiring to enable the idle revs to increase, and to kill the AC when you mail the throttle. As i found this out after someone supposedly more knowledgable than myself sold me a 16v AC unit, i dont have the required wiring etc to add these functions.

[Bx Bandit]

I'm a cretin am I? Hmph...erm well when cold, it'll start on the button (so to speak) but if it stalls, that's when it becomes a right bugger to start, so point taken Vanny oh uncretinous one!

Yes Doc, 2nd butterfly closing sorry old chap. tell you what I didn't mention and I have no idea how you'd test this but I've not replaced the coil. Are they not of the nature that either they work or they dont? Or is there an unhappy medium of crappy deterioration?

Also, anyone know how much 3rd/4th synchros are? I assume most Mi16 boxes get fucked on 3rd and 4th so would it not be wise to get new ones?

[Vanny]

mines fucked second to third like ALL BE3 boxes ever, though this one was buggered by someone else!

[Way2go]

Yes Doc, 2nd butterfly closing sorry old chap. tell you what I didn't mention and I have no idea how you'd test this but I've not replaced the coil. Are they not of the nature that either they work or they dont? Or is there an unhappy medium of crappy deterioration?

I've had problems with this & think it was due to sticky shaft (oo err ). Run some 3-in -1 oil onto spring and shaft of the actuator and a little the opposite side.

After a couple of applications throttle performance and idling was brilliant. Beforehand idling was sticking at 1500 rpm several times.

[Bx Bandit]

do you mean all BE3s or all BE3s on 16vs? Never had a prob on the TDs! Mine was trashed by someone else too, but as the clutch cable had been fitted by a blind quadraplegic with turets i didn't notice!

[Way2go]

the clutch cable had been fitted by a blind quadraplegic with turets i didn't notice!

Why, was it the welsh turets that disguised it?

[Bx Bandit]

Yes Doc, 2nd butterfly closing sorry old chap. tell you what I didn't mention and I have no idea how you'd test this but I've not replaced the coil. Are they not of the nature that either they work or they dont? Or is there an unhappy medium of crappy deterioration?

I've had problems with this & think it was due to sticky shaft (oo err ). Run some 3-in -1 oil onto spring and shaft of the actuator and a little the opposite side.

After a couple of applications throttle performance and idling was brilliant. Beforehand idling was sticking at 1500 rpm several times.

did it idle ok for a bit and then rise up of it's own accord?
or idle ok when cold but only idled higher when hot?

.....and what do you mean welsh turets? Are you dissing this mighty country?

[Way2go]

did it idle ok for a bit and then rise up of it's own accord?
or idle ok when cold but only idled higher when hot?

It probably idled OK for a while but if the second butterfly was operated under throttle it may then stick in a higher position. It certainly would also stick in this higher (partially open) position when driving which mine being an auto wouldn't slow properly when I took my foot off the gas!

.....and what do you mean welsh turets? Are you dissing this mighty country?

I was thinking that you as a non-welsh speaker wouldn't understand the welsh swear words but maybe or maybe they haven't tranlated the English ones yet!

[Philhod]

There appears to be a minimum closure setting of the second butterfly of .8mm between the edge of the closing throttle and it's body. As well as oiling all the bitz check that this is correct.

What's up with the synchro hubs? are they 1 making noises, 2 baulking when changing, 3 jumping out of gear? if not ....why bother???
Apart from the very rare occasion that the brass slip or baulk ring cracks, wear is usually a quite slow process that gives plenty warning

[Bx Bandit]

On the synchro's Phil, if you change gear very slowly then no problem. But anything approaching normal and the gears crunch. With the 16v, if you want the performance, then you need to drop a gear or two to overtake (and you really need to rev the pants off the bitch to get her moving, let alone anjoy her) and 3rd or 4th are the two gears you need to do just that - hence why they is fucked!!!!! Unless you think it could be anything other than synchros mate?

[Philhod]

If it's baulking at a fast change does it do it on up change 3-4, or down change 4-3 or
both? Due to your comments on the clutch cable fitters...it could be something as simple as adjustment. Can you double de clutch ( it's wot we had to do before synchro came in).

If it still does it when you double de clutch your changes, it's defo cable adjust time.
I posted on an earlier thread, the one where David reported how pleased he was with the clutch cable job about using a longer distance piece in the adjustment screw if you've run out of adjustment

[Vanny]

swansea