BXProject

[Bx Bandit]

Right then, now the Valver is back on the road, I need to iron out the problems one by one.
First up is the starter solenoid. The S/M itself was a Valeo recon unit bought two years ago. You know the problem....clicky clicky. As I understand it, the solenoid is being activated but isn't making the contact.
Having taken apart before (a few years ago) I don't remember it being particularly easy to refurb or carry out what ever is needed without bending or breaking parts.

Any one got any advice please. I thought about using a relay but I'm not convinced it'll make much difference as I think the problem is internal to the SM solenoid, not supply voltage.

[Way2go]

I'll also be interested in this answer Bandit as my soleoid has gone sluggish giving variable results now. Ist turn of the key is a slow crank, second is a faster one. Must say though it looks a pig to get at and even to remove the starter motor assy itself amongst the air-con pipes!

[Fish_Botherer]

I'm not looking forward to the starter replacement on my aircon BX either....

[Vanny]

Is it deffinately the starter is my first question?

Secondly is this an original starter or a late type xantia style starter? IF you have the old huge one, then fuck it off and get a xantia one, half the size, rarely fail, easier to fit, provide a weight saving on the power train (well maybe less the later).

Okay, adding a relay, pointless at this stage, the damage and wear has already occured, a relay might put off the inevitable for a short while, but its a futile attempt. And regardless, a relay isn't the way to go, replacing the wiring from switch to the starter is probably the better way to go, a strong current is good especially for longevity of the unit.

If the motor isn't turning at all then your problem is quite possible the motor bushings, or even the contacts on the com. You can strip the motor down and replace worn bushes with those from a washing machine, i have recently seen 'generic' bushes which can be cut down to size. Black and Decker also sell bushes for every drill they have ever made, might work well.

Does aircon make it any easier or harder to replace the starter?

[Bx Bandit]

The aircon pipes can get in the way and are fairly rigid but as this is the 16V without aircon it don't matter!
The starter motor is a 2 year old Valeo recon unit, so brushes etc 'should' be fine. You can hear the solenoid clicking in but clearly not making contact.

The relay could have a huge benefit if the problem were current or voltage related. The question really is about whether the problem is a sticky solenoid due to physical resistance or due to inadequate voltage..

[Philhod]

Sounds short of Volts tbh. Unless there is good contact on every joint the click is usually the sign that there isn't.
Take the live off the battery, release the cable at the motor and, oh is it an early one with a short cable between the solenoid and the motor or a later one with the connection internal??
Any way remove cable(s) check for any breaks, clean all contacts, then refit all with a spot of vaseline, real tight.

( always use vaseline when it's real tight)

[Vanny]

Its not short of voltage, its a coil, its short of current.

NEVER assume that a recon unit is as good as it should be. Is it a NEW OR OLD style starter. Have you measured the voltage at the terminal (gives you an idea of potential), sounds like you knwo what you need to do but havent done it? Like i said, even if you add a relay now to boost the current, the likely hood is that you already have a worn solenoid, infact its almost a guarantee, so stick a relay in (or better still, hot wire the starter terminal from the battery direct and see if there is a problem) and it might work again for a while. Have you measured the line resistance from starter terminal to ignition barrel. You should try some measurements before jumping to too many conclusions.

AC pipes run under the battery straight to the receiver drier on the wing, then to the condensor and under to the pump. They are no where near the manifold, or the bell house? Thus, how do they restrict access?

[docchevron132]

Relays make a fucking huge difference.
Stick one in the sonabitch.
Does the starter not work at all?
Oh, and have you started it much since the motor was fitted?

Erm, why would the solonoid be fucked if it aint done owt?

The air con pipes from the compressor tend to get in the way rather..

[Vanny]

oh for fucks sake, fine do what you all want, the system only worked fine (without a relay) for 25 years, clearly Citroen fucked up with there wiring approach and should have put in extra electrical components just for fun. Hell while your at it put some in for the rear light cluster, and the front lights, and the window motors and the wiper motor, and the washer pumps and the ABS (i know the ABS has one, but another aint gonna hurt!), a few more on the fuel pump sound like a good idea. Dont forget to fuse them all, and any major cluster of fuses should have a rapid blow fuse in line. Oh, actually stick a 24v battery in and the thing will fly!

[docchevron132]

Erm, actually fitting relays on the headlamps is a very worthwhile thing to do aswell, although it takes a clever cunt to make the dim dip work through relays properly.

As it goes the system worked OK (ish) when it was shiny and new, but sonce the connectors age, as does the wiring, then giving things a helping hand and taking the strain off the ign. switch by fitting a relay is not bad thing.

[Way2go]

Now don't go all apoplectic on us Vanny! I agree with you to some extent as this relay thing was started by the sorceror and although it may "paper over the cracks" it is not the root cause of the problem which has only manifolded itself over time.

My starter until recently was fast and the start was within a fraction of a turn. Now if I turn the key the starter may crank slower than it should. If i back off and try again the starter will spin fast and the car will immediately start. Once the starter just "clicked" as when the battery is flat, a few tries with just a click and then the starter span fast and the car started.

Seems to me (without physical examination yet) that the problem is that the solenoid either has mechanically stiffened up or its motor switch contacts have oxidised giving a variable current to the motor.

This talk of a relay......surely the solenoid is already just that, a high current pass relay?

[docchevron132]

True, but it needs a fair ampage to kick the thing in.
The relay trick has been around for years, and for good reason, if only to take some strain off the feeble contacts in the ign. switch.
SAme ideaology with the headlamps. Full current going through that poxy set of contacts in the switch is a shit idea.

[Vanny]

W2G yeah it is a glorified relay, and with low excitor current it doesn't correctly power up, so you need a good strong current on the excitor side to energise the coil.

My problem with relays is that it simply masks the problem. Certain people in the world bang on about them as the cure for everything, these are the same people who would prefer to bodge rather than fix. Connectors don't age, they oxidise a little, so they can be cleaned and restored, or better still (since 90% of connectors on the BX are standard) they can be replaced! The wires degrade because they are not PVC coated but simply plastic coated, my understanding is its the plastic that reacts with the current and causes the blackening you see when you cut the wires. Modern wiring (with PVC coating) shouldn't do this (or so i have been told be a couple of experts in vehicle wiring) so the correct resolution is to replace not bodge.

Relays are NOT a solution but a bodge, which will come back to haunt.

The switches (ignition switch, and light switch) work just fine infact they are over specced and bigger than the contacts in the relay you plan to muller in.

[Bx Bandit]

Right, I haven't checked the voltages as you suggest Vanny and I will do, as it makes sense to start from a 'ground up' perspective.
I suspect that they'll be 'ok' but it's one thing measuring o/c voltages and another during operation which is probably the sort of thing you mean when you mention masking problems with a relay.
But, the facts are that the solenoid is working BUT doesn't always make the contact. So it's either a sticky solenoid that isn't travelling far enough to make contact OR the contacts are indeed oxidised or dirty.

In the case of a sticky solenoid, could a relay reduce any existing voltage drop and so provide the extra oomph to overcome the friction inside the solenoid?

If it's dirty contacts, can the solenoid be taken apart by us mere mortals, cleaned up and put back together because if memory serves, when I did this on a scrap starter, it seems impossible to take it apart without destroying it.

Doc, the SM was fitted 2 years ago and was doing this before I took it off the road. I guess you're thinking oxidised contacts???

[Fish_Botherer]

The Doc said

if only to take some strain off the feeble contacts in the ign. switch.

IMHO, and yes, I'm nowhere near as technically or mechanically-minded as most here, the ignition switch and loom to the centre footwell area is always worth factoring in as a potential source of electrical problems on the BX. That's because it's so fundamental, and previous owners or alarm installers have often tinkered away in this area with Scotchlokkery. OK, this can be remedied through rewiring replacement, but I prefer to leave the switch area well alone and replace as it's one of thise units designed to be assembled rather than dismantled. Also, the switch itself seems subject to mechanical wear: many BXs will have needed at least one replacement by now, however well-specced the original.

I can see the case for relays here and there (lights), but the fact that the BX's original wiring layout remains pretty basic and debuggable is a big point in its favour for me, even if the wiring itself doesn't last, particularly in the front engine bay area and particularly to the starter and alternator (even when heat-sleeved).

Another reason for not looking forward to replacing a starter on an aircon BX is that the whole job's a lot simpler rad-out, and the aircon condensor sits right in front of the rad. But it will probably have to be done soon as the original's been on six years. I will of course be checking the wiring first.

I'd agree about the later PSA starters: the starter on the short-life TZi estate I ran many moons ago was replaced with a secondhand 306 starter which seemed to be about half the size of the original, but no less efficient.

[Bx Bandit]

You don't need to take the rad out mate to change the starter motor.....

I put the problems down to the fact that the suppliers no longer supply the parts to PSA but to a motorfactors, so who really gives if the quality drops a bit and problems arise? The only people to get in the neck is us. Put it this way, a brand new car will come with a 3 or 5 or 7 year warranty. The replacement starter motor for the valver went tit's up in under a year but I was too lazy to deal with it and take it back.

It's the same with track rod ends. Euro car parts don't sell oem (lemforder) tre's any more and now sell Hi-Line ones which are utter shite. The rubber has split in under 2 yrs/10,000 miles use and they are 6mm longer than the oem one's so the tracking goes all to shit. AEP do them but they're £25 + VAT + dely....worth it in the long run but I can't afford it just now.

[Philhod]

When I said Volts Vanny i meant the stuff that comes down the wire when you turn the key

It's all the same to me...electrickery!! and all I said is what you lot have repeated.

Take the fucking cable off, check it, clean it, and put it back at least before you start adding things or throwing things away.

I only know enuff about wires to keep things running and these are the sort of jobs you had to do at least once a year, before new materials arrived.

The old inertia starters used to last about 2 years, less if you didn't tighten them up once a month.
Once pre engaged units became the norm, I always kept up this regime when it was copper strands encased in rubber and I honestly don't remember replacing a starter motor.

[Vanny]

Old style solenoids can be worked on, new style solenoids can't, but as Bandit doesn't seem to have answered a basic question i've asked twice, and there is a trend in this thread to a) jump straight to a bodge rather than a diagnosing the problem b) not pay much attention to what i'm writing, i think i'll stay clear of any further thread developments.

In summary, yes a relay might help if the solenoid current is weak, but its not a cure just a stop gap.

Next week lets start one on the whole adding a grease nipple to a rear trailing arm myth.

[docchevron132]

Relays are for winners...

Grease nipples in the rear arms are also for winners, as long as A: the plastic tube has a slit chopped in it, and B: you use heavy oil, not grease.
Oh, and obviousley plug the holes in the arse end of the arm...

[Bx Bandit]

Keep that ginger mop on you scouse bastard!
Yes tis definitely the starter motor and
Tis not a Xantia starter. It's a flamin' psuedo re-con unit that lasted all of 2 seconds!
Problem gets worse as the weather get's hot!