BXProject

[mat_the_cat]

Cheers Doc for the diagnosis! Couple of things that have sprung to mind. As the engine was starting fine in the Xantia, I'm wondering whether the pump was timed with the cambelt a tooth out. As the problem only occurred when I did the swap, and changed the belt at the same time. That sound plausible?
Also, am I right in thinking that with the engine warm, even though the fuel is being injected too early it's not producing the smoke as there is enough heat around to make it ignite? Only when it's cold that it can't burn...

[docchevron132]

There's quite alot out of whack on that pump mate!

First, yes, it is rather too advanced for it's own good, infact I would imagine that the engine will be trying to kill itself like it is...

When it's cold you have less compression, a bit, which wont help.

Ideally the timing needs to alter as the engine warms, only slightly though, thats why many pumps had the water stat advance arm, or later the electric advance thingy ont he front of the pump.

Neither of which yours has..

It is possible that the inj. pump timing is a tooth out, maybe.. I'd expect it to be more clattery than it is if that was the case, but equally, it is plausable..

A lack of adequite glow pluggage may have a bearing here aswell, the control boxes can and do kinda die after a while...

Next up, the cold start waxstat cable thingy aint actually connected to the fucking pump at all! Which also wont help, it's also a right faff to get to the fucking thing and set it up proper...

Next up we get to the on boost fuelling, which, well, what can I say? FUCK ME VICAR it's wound out to the fucking moon and back!

Next up comes the throttle arm which returns a good deal further than it should...

All these things are having a bearing on the smoke / starting / more smoke / death of the planet through smoke etc...

I'd start by setting the pump timing, dial guage is the prefered and more accurate method, although the last couple I've set now I quite literally ran the engine and swung the pump around until it sounded sweet... As it goes both were a tad retarded when checked ont he guage, but not by much, adn they ran sweet enough and started on the button, so thats how they still are.

After that I'd see if you cant get the cold start cable attached to the swing arm ont he pump and see if it all actually moves and works...
You should find that when cold the engine revs are higher, maybe about 1100 - 1200 RPM and that'll drop down as it warms up..

Then I'd set the throttle arm up, maybe investigate the base fuelling, and turn the fucking on boost fuelling down by 3 cajillion turns!

[mat_the_cat]

I'm inclined to just retard the pump timing by ear a bit for now - by the sounds of things I'm unlikely accidentally move it too far and make it too retarded!
What puzzles me is why it started doing that as the Xantia was perfect, and I know for certain that it isn't a tooth out now. So I wonder if previously someone did a cambelt change, and it ran roughly, rather than take the belt off they adjusted the pump timing? My Dad had the donor car since it was a few months old, and he'd only do oil changes himself, I do have a few doubts about the garage he used after seeing the amount of silicone sealant they used on the engine when changing anything...
Regarding the fuelling - I've already backed it off quite a bit when I turned the boost down. The smoke isn't really an issue when running - I only get it on full throttle or when I'm off boost and don't match the throttle to the revs. If I drive around 2-3k rpm I don't see any smoke from the driver's seat.
Having said all this though, I do wonder what boost I am running. I borrowed a mate's boost gauge for the initial set up and got an indicated 0.6 bar as standard. His response was that the boost has probably dropped off with age, so we shortened the actuator arm (quite a lot - so that it was very difficult to get it over the pin), and had to make fairly major adjustments to the fuelling to achieve an indicated boost of 'only' 1.1 bar. At the time it made me doubt the internet claims I'd read about the boost levels people had reputedly achieved.
After I cracked the head I backed the boost off by a guesstimated two complete turns, and turned down the maximum fuelling screw to suit. Initially we had to back the throttle stop screw all the way out to get the idle speed reasonably down - when I backed off the max fuel screw I didn't adjust the throttle stop screw at all so that would explain the fact that you can move the 'throttle' arm a bit without affecting the revs.
Now I am thinking that perhaps the calibration of the borrowed boost gauge was slightly iffy, and in fact I am running a bit more than whatever 1.1 bar minus two turns equates to. Especially given that I think it goes fairly well, despite as it turns out that the timing is too advanced (I was giving it pretty much full throttle when I left on Sunday and it was scrabbling in second, will spin in third but only in the wet on corners/roundabouts).

I guess it shows that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...or perhaps I am just a dangerous thing?

[docchevron132]

Anything is possible I guess..

It's not the easiest job in the world to undo all the bolts holding the pump body and seing the thing around, although if a garage fitted a belt and was happy it was correct but the thing ran rough, they might be inclined to check the pump timing??

I'd certainly check the boost with a calibrated guage though, I'd say thats running nearer 1.3 bar or more at the mo.

Was the cold start wax stat cable attached to the pump when it was in the Xantia??

[mat_the_cat]

Nope, but seeing as though everyone says they never work anyway, I never bothered to re-connect it. Actually it's something I meant to get round to, but the project ground to a halt before it was finished, and I only remembered about it once you pointed it out!

Cheers for the advice mate, will let you know how it goes.

[Philhod]

Just read into this.I agree with what Doc has told you up to now and I really suspect the pump, the fuelling seems all to cock.
I've had good reports about a set up called Delphi. If there's one near you get it re calibrated.

Reconnect the cold start cable ... they do work actually, if you set it with the engine completely cold, it's not hard to get right.
You will also clear up any question of belt issues when you put the pump back too.
At least after that you will have closed off 1/2 the questionable issues and will be starting with some known fact's if you still have problems.

[Vanny]

Delphi, the third biggest automotive parts supplier in Europe, possibly not the people you mean i gues Phil?

Cos if it is then fuck right off, Delphi are the work of the devil and must be removed from this planet (inorder to enhance my own job security mind, bastarding competitor)

[Bx Bandit]

...After I cracked the head I backed the boost off by a guesstimated two complete turns, and turned down the maximum fuelling screw to suit. Initially we had to back the throttle stop screw all the way out to get the idle speed reasonably down - when I backed off the max fuel screw I didn't adjust the throttle stop screw at all so that would explain the fact that you can move the 'throttle' arm a bit without affecting the revs.....

That sounds like you've used the anti-stall adjustment to adjust the idle!!!!! On the back of the pump, there is a rocker that the waxstat connects to. The rocker rests on one of two adjustment/grub stylee screws. The screw nearest the drivers side is the cold fast idle setting, pulled against it by the waxstat. The other screw (passenger side) is the idle speed of the engine when hot (the rocker is released by the waxstat cable).

The stop for the actual accelerator lever is an anti stall adjustment, not idle! Wound out too far and the engine will stall when you release the accelerator. Wound in too far, the engine revs will fall very slowly and engine braking will be crap. proper adjustment is in the BOL.

[docchevron132]

Yeah that!
What Bandit said is rather what I was trying to say, only he said it better!!

The BOL is a good starting point actually, for once.. But you'll find you can make it sweeter / better by playing about gently and doing it all by ear..

[Bx Bandit]

My ears aren't that dextrous, so I can only use my hands

[mat_the_cat]

@Bandit!

Yes, it does sound like I have been adjusting the anti-stall screw. Doh! But I think that the main problem is timing, so will have a look at the BOL and see how that goes. I take it that if I do try adjustment by ear, we're talking about mm by mm of adjustment of the pump?

[Bx Bandit]

mm by mm is a fairly coarse increment in general but a good place to start. You need to turn the pump clockwise as you look at it from the sprocket end to retard the timing. You can probably start by moving it 2 or 3mm to start with. Take a photo of where it is now. In order for the timing to be that far out the pump will be near the end of it's travel anti clockwise. If anything, if you are in doubt of the 'sweet spot by ear', retard it till it runs rough, then advance it in small increments until it runs ok. Although it'll be on the retarded side, it won't be trying to create nuclear war in your cylinders!

There is one issue sticking in my mind though.

The engine would (under normal conditions) start better with advanced timing (although probably not as advanced as it seems to be), which may mean you have other starting issues, namely over fuelling and/or poor pre-heat module and/or poor/duff glow plugs.

On older pumps they had an advance unit (dos has described them further up) but from I know, the later mk1 (97ish) pumps (like yours) didn't have any advance units, but used the post heat function only. You need a post heat relay from the same vintage Xantia!!!

[mat_the_cat]

Thanks. The glowplug idea may well be on the right lines, although they are new, a faulty module would explain why the problem never existed in the Xantia.
I did initially suspect an air leak as the problem seemed to improve when I pumped the priming bulb. I have replaced all the fuel lines, which did improve things so I assumed I still had an air leak elsewhere I couldn't trace.
Would you suggest adjusting the timing when warm (as to my ears it runs sweetly when warm anyway) or when it's doing the coughing/smoking thang when cold???

[Bx Bandit]

The xantia module is different (better) so an upgrade would be a good idea!

There's no reason why you couldn't retard it some 1st off and then see if it starts better whilst it's cold. To time it by ear when running though it'll need to be warm. Doc would be best advisor on this tbh!

[Philhod]

still think the pump would perform a lot better after a spell of re calibration on a Delphi machine.

The Delphi bit I'm on about Vanny, are all franchised diesel garages that do only diesel and have to have all the right equipment to get it and are all rather good if not cheap.


And ...err... yes, they do use all your competitors gear, the quality of which, I have no information at all

[docchevron132]

/\ all that shit really.

Of all the pumps I've timed by ear I've sorted any cold start issues FIRST, then at least I know a defined starting point from which to, er, start...

Then I swing the pump about when the engine is warm until it sounds teh sex.

Which I never bothered with on mine since the engine is fucked, and it has a Lucas pump right now, and they are shit.

Easy way to check right now.
With the engine cold, give it four blasts on the glow plugs and a bit of gas on the go pedal, then turn the key.
Does it start with less smoke and run evenely?

[mat_the_cat]

OK, tried it a couple of times now with 4 good blasts on the glowplugs, and a bit of throttle. Last night I couldn't really detect any difference. This morning, it idled (still roughly) without me needing to give it any throttle. Which is a small improvement but not really much to speak of...
To me that either says that the problems is completely not glowplug related, or the glowplugs aren't working at all. All plugs are less than a year old (when changed the problem didn't improve), and I get pretty much battery voltage at the connections. I've managed to borrow a DTI, just need to check the BOL to see how it is supported...

[docchevron132]

Blimey, you're going all scientific!

As a matter of interest, what's the ohm's reading of each glow plug??

[Philhod]

I usually use an Ammeter. It should pull between 32 and 48 amps. depending on plug they go in 8's or 12's
so you can tell if you have 1,2,3 or 4 down.

[Bx Bandit]

Get your timing sorted first mate, really do. You kicked out a lot of black stuff when you left off at Vannys which means you're over fuelling a lot which ain't gonna help your starting issues either. Couple that with the fact that your pump is designed for use with a Xantia glow plug relay with the post heat function and it's no wonder it a shit to start. Which glow plugs did you fit?

I've been messing with mine the last couple of days. The glow plug module that Vanny gave me is in with the proper glowplugs and it's a vast improvement. I've also backed off the fuelling a bit and torqued the injectors properly and it's improved again, not just the starting but it runs sweeter too.